Curse

belshazaarswrath · Jul 18, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I've been fiddling around around with my ranger as of late and it seems to me that they can deal considerably more single target damage than a para can.

If you run glass arrows with Asura Scan and PBS+Zojun Shot and Favorable winds you can deal around 150dmg to foes with 100 armor per attack skill. Then you can deal like nearly 200 (180-190) to squishes. That means in about 4 attack skills you can take out pretty well armored for and in 3 you can take out a squishy. No paragon can top that I think. Then there's barrage and whatnot that you could also be using to deal damage over an area which paragons can't do (except through burning and holy spear...derp).

Damge boost pl0x...or nerf rangers. Whichever would make everyone happy...

Tenebrae · Jul 19, 2010, 07:19 AM // 07:19

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I've been fiddling around around with my ranger as of late and it seems to me that they can deal considerably more single target damage than a para can.

Damge boost pl0x...or nerf rangers. Whichever would make everyone happy...

Hahahahaha ...... its .... a joke ..... right ?

Yeah lets nerf ranger damage even more so they can only use their omfgpwning skills like Spirits and Traps ! .... oh wait ....

Desert Rose · Jul 19, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

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Originally Posted by Lanier

a. the chants need to have a conditionality rework. Im not saying make them (at least the non elites) unconditional, but they need to activate on a condition that is controllable by the paragon. For example, make the choruses (like chorus of restoration) activate the next time an echo is placed on the target ally. The condition for the ballad could stay like it is. The condition for aria's could change to the aria being activated when a signet is used on an ally. Songs could be unconditional (thus turning song of restoration into a more powerful but longer recharging Light of deliverence).

b. Chants need a recharge reduction in order to be of any use no matter their functionality. I would suggest putting their recharges ~10 seconds depending on the chant.

c. Paragons need one (im just asking for one) viable single target heal. I was thinking maybe about changing signet of synergy by giving it a 5 second recharge, eliminating the healing of the paragon using it, and making half of the current heal conditional based on the target being under the effects of a chant.

d. I also think that if the above changes were to be made, a second signet should be changed to a target ally support signet (so that activating arias wouldn't be impossible). One idea is making signet of remedy remove a condition from target ally and raising the recharge to 5 or 6.

I agree that the paragon shouts and chants need to be made more controllable by the paragon himself, but your idea looks like you're trying again to present your idea of the paragon as a backline character. Such a character is either useless because he's weaker than a monk, or overpowered because of 110+ base armor.
Also your idea would only slightly encourage any intelligent use of the motivatian chants themselves because you'll still spam them and then cast echos, signets etc. at the target in peril.
Conditions based on what your allies are doing right at the moment when you activated the chants (i.e. is casting a spell, is moving, is attacking etc.) will not saves time to attack because you don't waste time to manually active them, but you also have to use the chants at the right moment and simply spamming them will be far less effective.

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

If you run glass arrows with Asura Scan and PBS+Zojun Shot and Favorable winds you can deal around 150dmg to foes with 100 armor per attack skill. Then you can deal like nearly 200 (180-190) to squishes. That means in about 4 attack skills you can take out pretty well armored for and in 3 you can take out a squishy.

Yes, such a build does high damage per attack, but how often do you attack? How much damage do you over time? How long can you manage to spam your skills energy-wise? How much support do you can bring?
A turret ranger deals about the same DPS, but attacks way faster and can therefor be buffed better.

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No paragon can top that I think.

AR, "TPiY!", "GftE!", EBSoH and Scan deals about the same DPS than your build, but attacks faster and can therefor be buffed better, already has more support and has sufficient e-managment to bring even more support and/or can bring attack skills to deal even more damage.

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Then there's barrage and whatnot that you could also be using to deal damage over an area which paragons can't do (except through burning and holy spear...derp).

Since you're not believing me go the to ranger forum and ask how strong Barrage (and whatnot, whatever that is) is in general PvE.

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Damge boost pl0x...or nerf rangers. Whichever would make everyone happy...

No, only the ones who want to see paragons overpowered (or have an insufficient knowledge about the game mechanics, these two things seems to go hand in hand).
Ranged weapons are not meant for damage (many arguing that spears already deal far too much damage for a ranged weapon), if you want to deal very high damage grab a melee weapon.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 19, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I've been fiddling around around with my ranger as of late and it seems to me that they can deal considerably more single target damage than a para can.

If you run glass arrows with Asura Scan and PBS+Zojun Shot and Favorable winds you can deal around 150dmg to foes with 100 armor per attack skill. Then you can deal like nearly 200 (180-190) to squishes. That means in about 4 attack skills you can take out pretty well armored for and in 3 you can take out a squishy. No paragon can top that I think. Then there's barrage and whatnot that you could also be using to deal damage over an area which paragons can't do (except through burning and holy spear...derp).

Damge boost pl0x...or nerf rangers. Whichever would make everyone happy...

/agree

I think rangers (bow skills, anyway) are fine as is... they can do a lot of damage to a single target, or a lot of damage to an area, they have a lot of flexibility. The paragon loses to the ranger in both cases and he doesn't have the ranger's bow preparations to boost his damage either. This is the primary reason why I feel that the paragon's damage is subpar and needs a boost. Paragons don't have preparations, so they are still going to lose, but if they had some form of multiattack it would help a bit.

I don't see to many people saying "ZOMG rangers are overpowered" so I don't think there is much justification for nerfing them. Instead the paragons need to be brought up to the ranger's level, or at least close to it.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

AR, "TPiY!", "GftE!", EBSoH and Scan deals about the same DPS than your build, but attacks faster and can therefor be buffed better, already has more support and has sufficient e-managment to bring even more support and/or can bring attack skills to deal even more damage.

This has been covered in #237 and elsewhere. There is no way that the paragon can compete with the ranger in raw damage because the ranger has multi-hit capability and preparations while the paragon does not. If you haven't realized this yet do the math and see for yourself. Numbers don't lie.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/r...t10425829.html

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Since you're not believing me go the to ranger forum and ask how strong Barrage (and whatnot, whatever that is) is in general PvE.

This has already been covered in great detail on gwg. As a real world example, recall that entire teams of splinter barrage rangers were used to farm Tombs. They can deal good mass damage with the proper team setup.

If you still say that Barrage sucks, history is there to prove you wrong.
Is it the best build in the game? Maybe not, but it's not bad either.

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No, only the ones who want to see paragons overpowered (or have an insufficient knowledge about the game mechanics, these two things seems to go hand in hand).
Ranged weapons are not meant for damage (many arguing that spears already deal far too much damage for a ranged weapon), if you want to deal very high damage grab a melee weapon.

This is more misinformed crap from a melee-biased point of view. Glass Arrows is all about damage. Barrage is all about damage. Cruel Spear and Spear of Fury are pure damage. Saying that ranged weapons are not meant for damage is pure nonsense.
Lest you get confused again, I'll note that melee damage is always going to be higher because of faster attack speed, inherent bonuses (strength/crits), and things like Aura of Holy Might and Strength of Honor. But that does not mean that ranged weapons are (or should be) useless.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 19, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Yes, such a build does high damage per attack, but how often do you attack? How much damage do you over time? How long can you manage to spam your skills energy-wise? How much support do you can bring?
A turret ranger deals about the same DPS, but attacks way faster and can therefor be buffed better.

You attack relatively frequently since there are options for adding an ias. And you have expertise working for you so the attacks skills are about 2 energy pet usage and 1 if you have a zealous bow.

If you're just trying to do straight damage to one foe it's a damn good set up.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

AR, "TPiY!", "GftE!", EBSoH and Scan deals about the same DPS than your build, but attacks faster and can therefor be buffed better, already has more support and has sufficient e-managment to bring even more support and/or can bring attack skills to deal even more damage.

I can't test this in game since I don't have two of the skills required for it. So I can't say whether this is or is not true. Also this build I brought up isn't mine. It's from some guy on PvX

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Since you're not believing me go the to ranger forum and ask how strong Barrage (and whatnot, whatever that is) is in general PvE.

I don't need to. I actually run builds with barrage and they are effective. Like in the game. It's a good skill. And it deals good damage. I've been using it for years and years.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

No, only the ones who want to see paragons overpowered (or have an insufficient knowledge about the game mechanics, these two things seems to go hand in hand).
Ranged weapons are not meant for damage (many arguing that spears already deal far too much damage for a ranged weapon), if you want to deal very high damage grab a melee weapon.

I understand that ranged weapons aren't going to be as powerful as close range weapons. But giving paragons a LITTLE BOOST in damage and SOME Aoe isn't going to have them dealing near the same amount of damage as warriors, assasins and dervishes. It simply will not.

Lanier · Jul 19, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

you have to keep in mind that rangers only access to a couple of multi hit skills (dual shot and triple shot - which is a pve skill and should thus be compared to spear of fury), these skills do reduce damage done (thus partially compensating for the extra damage done by shooting two arrows), and bows have a much slower attack speed than spears. Attack speed has a very large impact on total dps. Bow Attacks also don't add much bonus damage (not nearly as much on average as cruel spear, blazing spear, stunning strike, and spear of lightning). Finally, all bow attacks cost energy which, even with expertise, can put an energy strain on a ranger, which is not something that paragons have to cope with.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 19, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

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Originally Posted by Lanier

you have to keep in mind that rangers only access to a couple of multi hit skills (dual shot and triple shot - which is a pve skill and should thus be compared to spear of fury), these skills do reduce damage done (thus partially compensating for the extra damage done by shooting two arrows), and bows have a much slower attack speed than spears. Attack speed has a very large impact on total dps. Bow Attacks also don't add much bonus damage (not nearly as much on average as cruel spear, blazing spear, stunning strike, and spear of lightning). Finally, all bow attacks cost energy which, even with expertise, can put an energy strain on a ranger, which is not something that paragons have to cope with.

All valid points. But they also have the advantage of being able to use preparations which can boost damage, add effects, help energy management, and increase attack speed. Also they generally have access to more conditions. There's also the fact that bows in general have longer ranges than spears. Then there's the fact that Rangers don't rely on go for the eyes to give them critical hits. Criticals are just icing on the cake for rangers.

Plus they can use pets, traps, and nature rituals...which of course are not the greatest damage boosters but they are there to help boost damage if you want them.

Also they have more AoE (Barrage,Volley, Traps, Melandru's Assault, a few preparations and incendiary arrows).

Also I've been thinking and I don't think it's a good idea to just power creep spear mastery skills. I think that anet should change the functionality of some of the command skills so that they aren't helping the team defensively but offensively.

Perhaps have a shout that makes you/the party give cracked armor with their next attack? Maybe an elite skill that makes the whole party deal more damage with their next attack/spell? A skill that makes hitting a foe with a spear attack hurt foes adjacent to the foe you hit would be cool too. Maybe even some e denial similar to fear me? (yea ok e denial sucks in pve...but I'm just giving ideas here).

What do people think of this? It would give paragons a more unique role in parties and make them more fun to play in my opinion.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 19, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

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Originally Posted by Lanier

you have to keep in mind that rangers only access to a couple of multi hit skills (dual shot and triple shot - which is a pve skill and should thus be compared to spear of fury), these skills do reduce damage done (thus partially compensating for the extra damage done by shooting two arrows), and bows have a much slower attack speed than spears. Attack speed has a very large impact on total dps. Bow Attacks also don't add much bonus damage (not nearly as much on average as cruel spear, blazing spear, stunning strike, and spear of lightning). Finally, all bow attacks cost energy which, even with expertise, can put an energy strain on a ranger, which is not something that paragons have to cope with.

Here's the deal.
We all know that most physical damage comes from buffs, this includes skill bonus damage plus things like orders, strength of honor, preparations. Since most damage comes from buffs the base weapon damage is relatively unimportant. Thus having Dual Shot reduce your base weapon damage by 25% is unimportant because the buff damage comes through without modification... 2 x whatever buff damage you have. So you can see that delivering more damage packets is the best way to take advantage of whatever buffs you have in your team. Warriors have a plethora of ways to do this with attack skills, Assassins do it natively with dual attacks, Dervishes do it natively with scythes, Rangers have access to Barrage/Volley/3Shot/2Shot/Forked as well as numerous 1s attack skills to get around slower bow attack speed. Paragons have nothing to match any of that and they are not able to take advantage of melee buffs or preparations either.

and about attack speed...
spears attack every 1.5s
shortbows/flatbows every 2.0s

under 33% IAS, this becomes 1.005s and 1.35s, according to http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_speed.
0.3s difference between attack speed is not that significant, especially when I launch 2, 3, 4 or 7 arrows in slightly longer than it takes you to throw 1 spear. Go throw this against Master of Damage and I guarantee that the ranger will win every time.

Ugh · Jul 19, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I've been fiddling around around with my ranger as of late and it seems to me that they can deal considerably more single target damage than a para can.

If you run glass arrows with Asura Scan and PBS+Zojun Shot and Favorable winds you can deal around 150dmg to foes with 100 armor per attack skill. Then you can deal like nearly 200 (180-190) to squishes. That means in about 4 attack skills you can take out pretty well armored for and in 3 you can take out a squishy.

If rangers couldn't deal more damage then a para, where would they fit in? If you haven't noticed, all rangers do is damage (which they don't even do as well as other professions). If they weren't the best ranged dps, they wouldn't fit in anywhere.

Also, paras weren't designed for dps (or aoe). IMO, they should have moderate dps that they can use while primarily focusing on party buffs (which could be both defensive and offensive).

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No paragon can top that I think.

And no ranger can top a para support-wise. Sounds good to me (actually, it doesn't sound good to me because rituals should be able to provide good support, but whatever).

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Damge boost pl0x...or nerf rangers. Whichever would make everyone happy...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I actually lol'd at that. Not a hearty, extensive, thunderous lol like the preceding use of caps lock may imply, but yea, I lol'd.

---

This goes to all the super-para/mesmer-fans that have been so vocal lately: if you want buffs for your class, you should keep your recommendations sensible and keep the role of that paticular class in mind.

---

Crash course on the PvE ranger on its way:

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Also they generally have access to more conditions.

All conditions caused by bows are bad in PvE. Yes, all of them.

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There's also the fact that bows in general have longer ranges than spears.

This is partially negated by Asuran Scan, entirely negated by shortbows, and completely reversed when using PBS/ZS. A ranger at Scan range will only have a few feet on a para at spear range, a ranger at shortbow range will be at the same distance, and a ranger using PBS/ZS (which is what you're using, apparantly, so it's interesting you brought up this point) will be much closer.

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Then there's the fact that Rangers don't rely on go for the eyes to give them critical hits. Criticals are just icing on the cake for rangers.

Criticals are 'icing on the cake' for every non-sin profession. Also, GftE raises all party damage and gives you good energy management, so I don't know why you're complaining about it.

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Plus they can use pets, traps, and nature rituals...which of course are not the greatest damage boosters but they are there to help boost damage if you want them.

Traps? Really? Lol.

Pets are useful to activate NRA and bodyblock. Including all the time they spend not attacking (which is literally more than they spend attacking), you'll get some retardedly low number of additional dps from them.

Rituals are pretty much always either counterproductive or too slow to actually be helpful.

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Also they have more AoE (Barrage,Volley, Traps, Melandru's Assault, a few preparations and incendiary arrows).

Not every class is supposed to have offensive AoE, so this doesn't mean paras should.

Barrage is bad outside of organized tank 'n' spank PUGs. Volley is bad everywhere. Traps are... just bad all-around. Melandru's Assault just gives you ~20 damage (it's not +damage like the skill says, it's just damage) in a nearby range, so it's a pretty terrible skill. Incendiary would probably be good if you could spam it, but you can't so it's not. All the AoE preps are bad; they cause scatter and have very low damage (even with EBSoH) so they're counterproductive.

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Also I've been thinking and I don't think it's a good idea to just power creep spear mastery skills. I think that anet should change the functionality of some of the command skills so that they aren't helping the team defensively but offensively.

Oh, this is much, much better. /bow

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You attack relatively frequently since there are options for adding an ias. And you have expertise working for you so the attacks skills are about 2 energy pet usage and 1 if you have a zealous bow.

That build still has pretty bad energy management. It's fine for areas with very short fights and small mobs, but not anywhere else.

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I can't test this in game since I don't have two of the skills required for it. So I can't say whether this is or is not true. Also this build I brought up isn't mine. It's from some guy on PvX

Don't trust that guy; he listed Mtouch as an optional in PvE.

Overall, PBS/ZS spamming are quite mediocre, even by a ranger's standards. They kill your range, which is pretty much the only advantage a bow ranger has over a melee; energy management is 'meh,' which is bad for med-large battles; and PBS/ZS don't have activation times, which means they're worse for spiking (and that's the only strength of a PvE bow ranger).

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I don't need to. I actually run builds with barrage and they are effective. Like in the game. It's a good skill. And it deals good damage. I've been using it for years and years.

Not for H/H. Unless you're in a very cramped area.

Desert Rose · Jul 19, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

You attack relatively frequently since there are options for adding an ias. And you have expertise working for you so the attacks skills are about 2 energy pet usage and 1 if you have a zealous bow.

Haven't tested it with an IAS, then the damage might be slightly ahead of a Turret Ranger or an all damage Paragon.
Also what kills the build energy-wise are primary the PvE skills because they aren't affected by Expertise.

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I don't need to. I actually run builds with barrage and they are effective. Like in the game. It's a good skill. And it deals good damage. I've been using it for years and years.

I haven't said Barrage is so bad that you cannot use it in PvE, but unless you tailor your entire teambuild around some Barrage users it's inferior to a single target bow build, and both are in general inferior to a dagger or scythe build.
Bows suck at dealing damage, that's why you read threads like "Are Bows Rendered Useless In PvE?" here and most good ranger players advise you to lay aside your bow in PvE and instead use daggers or scythes.

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Then there's the fact that Rangers don't rely on go for the eyes to give them critical hits. Criticals are just icing on the cake for rangers.

You've lost me here. Why do Paragons need critical hits? You rather mean "Paragons rely on cheap adrenaline chants/shouts for e-managment", right?

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I think that anet should change the functionality of some of the command skills so that they aren't helping the team defensively but offensively.

Most Command skills have their niches and uses, you don't have much skills to choose from without changing a currently useful skill. Also, "Never Give Up!", Godspeed or "Help Me!" doesn't sound like skills that could inflict Cracked Armor etc.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 20, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

You've lost me here. Why do Paragons need critical hits?

For the group of skills you brought up a good chunk of the damage comes from gfte no? Gfte in general is one of the main skills keeping paragon damage totally out of the gutter.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Haven't tested it with an IAS, then the damage might be slightly ahead of a Turret Ranger or an all damage Paragon.
Also what kills the build energy-wise are primary the PvE skills because they aren't affected by Expertise.

Well asuran scan doesn't really need it...and ebsoh is kinda energy taxing but you don't need that for big damage.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Most Command skills have their niches and uses, you don't have much skills to choose from without changing a currently useful skill. Also, "Never Give Up!", Godspeed or "Help Me!" doesn't sound like skills that could inflict Cracked Armor etc.

Eh I'd say there are enough to add some changes. You could always dip into motivation and leadership as well.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I haven't said Barrage is so bad that you cannot use it in PvE, but unless you tailor your entire teambuild around some Barrage users it's inferior to a single target bow build, and both are in general inferior to a dagger or scythe build.
Bows suck at dealing damage, that's why you read threads like "Are Bows Rendered Useless In PvE?" here and most good ranger players advise you to lay aside your bow in PvE and instead use daggers or scythes.

I've never really had to tailor my whole team around it...and Scythes and daggers are good on pretty much all the underpowered physicals.

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Originally Posted by Ugh

Not every class is supposed to have offensive AoE, so this doesn't mean paras should.

But they already do :/ it just isn't worth thinking about. At least give them something that is almost as good as barrage. Since everyone seems to think it's not that great I don't see the harm in them getting a skill like that.

Also the whole let's nerf rangers thing obviously wasn't serious. I was just illustrating my point.

To be honest though the more often I play the more I think anets priorities are whack as far as buffing goes. They've got Dervishes,Paragons and Smite Monks before Ele's and Rangers...who are basically staples of the game. That doesn't make any sense to me.

And you know only one or two of these classes in need will get the buff they need before GW2.

Ugh · Jul 20, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

But they already do :/ it just isn't worth thinking about. At least give them something that is almost as good as barrage. Since everyone seems to think it's not that great I don't see the harm in them getting a skill like that.

If it's not great, why do you want it? It's redundant, not good, and doesn't fit with the paragon role at all. All it does is step on the toes of rangers in the few areas where it is good, and I'm not saying that's bad just because rangers are my pet class; a para version of Barrage would probably just make Barrage fall out of use completely, since paras would have AoE comparable to rangers, but with good support. It could also be pretty OP since paras are a class that involves adrenaline, so easy ranged hitting = mass spam of the soon-to-be-buffed defensive skills.

Also, how would it work? Cost? Energy or adrenaline? Number of targets? Drawbacks? If it's good enough to be useful without being overbearing, I wouldn't particularly mind its inclusion, though I still wouldn't completely support it, either.

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Also the whole let's nerf rangers thing obviously wasn't serious. I was just illustrating my point.

Really? You made rangers sound pretty pwnsauce in the preceding paragraphs, so it sounded like you legitimately thought they were good. Then, you went on to share how rangers have 'awesome' stuff like traps, rituals, and Barrage (unless you were sarcastic there, too?). The only part that hints at sarcasm is the final sentence of the post in question, and that's only because a ranger nerf obviously wouldn't make anyone happy.

If all that was sarcasm, you're bad at sarcasm...

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To be honest though the more often I play the more I think anets priorities are whack as far as buffing goes. They've got Dervishes,Paragons and Smite Monks before Ele's and Rangers...who are basically staples of the game. That doesn't make any sense to me.

I agree with this. Not to mention, they buffed warrior, necro, and ritualist attributes in the update before mesmers, and all those classes were all very effective before the buffs, so...

shoyon456 · Jul 20, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

To be honest though the more often I play the more I think anets priorities are whack as far as buffing goes. They've got Dervishes,Paragons and Smite Monks before Ele's and Rangers...who are basically staples of the game. That doesn't make any sense to me.

So what if Ele's and Rangers aren't expansion classes? They have plenty of builds that are beyond viable. Try getting into a high-end PvP/PvE group as Ranger or Ele. You will. I don't know about Paras or anything else, but I know you won't as a Derv, hence the need to buff. And yes, believe it or not there are some of us who enjoy playing as the expansion classes.

Since Anet is looking at Paras, I suspect a similar situation for them, unless of course you're pigeonholed into running IMBAgon.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 20, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

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Originally Posted by Ugh

If it's not great, why do you want it? It's redundant, not good, and doesn't fit with the paragon role at all. All it does is step on the toes of rangers in the few areas where it is good, and I'm not saying that's bad just because rangers are my pet class; a para version of Barrage would probably just make Barrage fall out of use completely, since paras would have AoE comparable to rangers, but with good support. It could also be pretty OP since paras are a class that involves adrenaline, so easy ranged hitting = mass spam of the soon-to-be-buffed defensive skills.

Also, how would it work? Cost? Energy or adrenaline? Number of targets? Drawbacks? If it's good enough to be useful without being overbearing, I wouldn't particularly mind its inclusion, though I still wouldn't completely support it, either.

Eh I guess. I still think they should have something. Maybe something through the whole shout thing I was talking about earlier would be enough.

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Originally Posted by Ugh

Really? You made rangers sound pretty pwnsauce in the preceding paragraphs, so it sounded like you legitimately thought they were good. Then, you went on to share how rangers have 'awesome' stuff like traps, rituals, and Barrage (unless you were sarcastic there, too?). The only part that hints at sarcasm is the final sentence of the post in question, and that's only because a ranger nerf obviously wouldn't make anyone happy.

If all that was sarcasm, you're bad at sarcasm...

I wasn't being sarcastic...I was describing things that they do indeed have to boost damage. To show that they have all these possibilities to boost damage (be they good or bad) and paragons don't. That was my point.

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Originally Posted by Ugh

So what if Ele's and Rangers aren't expansion classes? They have plenty of builds that are beyond viable. Try getting into a high-end PvP/PvE group as Ranger or Ele. You will. I don't know about Paras or anything else, but I know you won't as a Derv, hence the need to buff. And yes, believe it or not there are some of us who enjoy playing as the expansion classes.

Since Anet is looking at Paras, I suspect a similar situation for them, unless of course you're pigeonholed into running IMBAgon.

I play all the classes...

A Derv can deal a shitload of damage. Not as much as Warriors and Assassins but they can get shit done. They aren't nearly as far behind as ele's who are supposed to be the main damage dealers in the spell casting world. Rangers can deal OK damage but have a ton of useless crap skills tied to their profession. These guys have been around since day one. By now they should be fine.

Paragons are in bad shape. But they are new compared to the other classes in bad shape. I'd say they should have priority over Dervishes for sure. But I think Everyone else should too (except smiting monks...I think that could be put at the end o the line).

shoyon456 · Jul 20, 2010, 03:23 AM // 03:23

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I play all the classes...

A Derv can deal a shitload of damage. Not as much as Warriors and Assassins but they can get shit done. They aren't nearly as far behind as ele's who are supposed to be the main damage dealers in the spell casting world. Rangers can deal OK damage but have a ton of useless crap skills tied to their profession. These guys have been around since day one. By now they should be fine.

Paragons are in bad shape. But they are new compared to the other classes in bad shape. I'd say they should have priority over Dervishes for sure. But I think Everyone else should too (except smiting monks...I think that could be put at the end o the line).

Hey, get your quotes in order, I was the one who called you on that.

You admit it yourself, Derv's are the last one of the melee characters in terms of effectiveness. And while they do more damage than Ele's in HM, you're forgetting that Ele's don't need to be up in a monster's face to cast a spell. Not to mention their AoE spells aren't restricted to hitting three enemies like a scythe. You're comparing apples to oranges and it does not work.

You make two arguments as I see it:
1. The core classes have been around longer so they should have been balanced already.
2. Ele's and rangers are more in need of buffing, which is tantamount to saying they're less useful in a group.

@ 1. The only reason they're still trying to balance is because of the inevitable power creep, combined with the lack of attention they've given GW1 since GW2 production. We could argue back and forth on whether the Ele/Derv/Para needs balancing first but that's not what's important. The fact is that Anet is getting it done. The only one that annoyed me was the Warrior buff which definitely should not have been a priority.

@ 2. Ele's and rangers can get in high end PvP/PvE. I'm not sure about Para's but I know as a Derv I am not welcome in high end PvP/PvE. 'Nuff said.

PS: If a "new" to you is one introduced in 2006, then I think you need to update your stuff. Its the middle of 2010. At this point in the game's life, using the fact that the core classes are over a year older than Para/Derv is kind of moot.

Ugh · Jul 20, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I wasn't being sarcastic...I was describing things that they do indeed have to boost damage. To show that they have all these possibilities to boost damage (be they good or bad) and paragons don't. That was my point.

Alrighty, then. If they're as bad as they are, I don't think they're worth considering, though, because they might as well not be there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

So what if Ele's and Rangers aren't expansion classes? They have plenty of builds that are beyond viable. Try getting into a high-end PvP/PvE group as Ranger or Ele. You will. I don't know about Paras or anything else, but I know you won't as a Derv, hence the need to buff. And yes, believe it or not there are some of us who enjoy playing as the expansion classes.

Since Anet is looking at Paras, I suspect a similar situation for them, unless of course you're pigeonholed into running IMBAgon.

Eh? I didn't say that...

Quote:

@ 2. Ele's and rangers can get in high end PvP/PvE. I'm not sure about Para's but I know as a Derv I am not welcome in high end PvP/PvE. 'Nuff said.

The only commonly ran, high-end PvE that eles and rangers are welcome in is physway and glaiveway, which also accept dervs.

So dervs are pretty much on par with rangers and eles farming-wise. However, rangers (and maybe eles) are actually worse than dervs in general PvE. Having played all the underpowered professions somewhat extensively, I think the priority order should've been ranger, derv, ele, para. Though, arguing over priority order is meaningless, since they already confirmed that they're working on dervs, paras, and lolmonkslol.

NerfHerder · Jul 20, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

So what if Ele's and Rangers aren't expansion classes? They have plenty of builds that are beyond viable. Try getting into a high-end PvP/PvE group as Ranger or Ele. You will. I don't know about Paras or anything else, but I know you won't as a Derv, hence the need to buff. And yes, believe it or not there are some of us who enjoy playing as the expansion classes.

Since Anet is looking at Paras, I suspect a similar situation for them, unless of course you're pigeonholed into running IMBAgon.

I play all 10 professions, in PvP and PvE. The Derv and Para need the most help, because they have the least amount of options atm. But, I wouldnt say the Ranger and Ele have plenty of viable builds. Rangers and Eles have a few niches in PvP, depending on the format. PvE is another story. The damage an Ele deals in HM PvE is subpar at best. And the team builds that involve Eles takes 3 or 4 of them spamming SF to work. The fact that Anet stated smite Monks need help instead of Eles is beyond me. My list for what needs help would be Derv, Para, Ele, and maybe Ranger. Comparing the four is pointless because they all need help and hold a different niche.

Paragons dealing AoE barrage type damage with a Spear is the wrong way to go. Paragons should deal AoE damage indirectly. Spears are just fine the way they are. They should have shouts that increase the damage of thier party members. I would even be happy with a shout/chant that allows all party members to deal +X damage to target foe and +X damage to adjacent foes with thier next attack. Anthem of Fury and Anthem of Guidance would be perfect for a buff like that. Something like Splinter Weapon(but not as powerful because it would be party wide) with a Paragon twist.

Ive said this before and I'm going to repeat it until it changes. Paragons should be able to specialize in offensive buffs as well as defense. Paras already have the prot part of defense and the Motivation line is already close to being viable. Give Paragons an offensive way to support the team and they wont have any trouble getting into a group w/o using an Imbagon.

Dame Laureline · Jul 20, 2010, 09:09 AM // 09:09

About Eles, HM PvE is not the only aspect of the game. Fire eles are omnipotent in NM prophecies and factions, it's ridiculously easy.
Also, lvl 28 eles are quite hard to face, they can easily wipe a party (H/H) if their number at the start of the battle isn't well counted. They do not need to be boosted.
The only change eles need is a reduce in HM foe armors. Maybe reduce their armor against elemental damages so they aren't as high as against physical damages.

Tenebrae · Jul 20, 2010, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I still cant believe the huge amount of BS when comparing to other classes. Those 2 ( yes , because there are only 2 guys supporting this outofmind buffs ) are still comparing P to a guy with a 2-2.4 sec fire rate , little faster if using IAS ( a P with an Ias is 1 attack per second LOL ) that has NO supporting skills AT ALL. Yes , i didnt forget spirits because spirits AND traps are EVEN WORSE than Motivation skills ( yeah, not QQ , just reflections of reality ).
Now some ppl seem to forget that Rangers have stupid 70 armor and 100 vs elemental , on the other hand , Paragons with its insignia ( wich is regular ) are about 106 GENERAL armor under a shout + AL insignia ( if you have ).
Now you want same DPS than ranger , almost same armor than the warrior , be able to heal almost like a Rit or Monk and buff defense and attack to the party like NO ONE can with IRREMOVABLE buffs ????? what else dude ? AOE ? holy lol , what more ? an "i win button" ?.

Seriously , let this thread die , its sad .....

PS: Boosting your party damage ITS your AoE , cut the bullcrap for G sake.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 20, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Eh? I didn't say that...

Woops. I guess with all the mass post dissection going on I got confused somewhere. That's why I hate arguing that way.

At any rate. I think after the big derv update they should do a few small fix updates for rangers and ele's (because I don't think they need a total reworking just a few choice changes). Then after that they should do a big update with paragons.

Quote:

About Eles, HM PvE is not the only aspect of the game. Fire eles are omnipotent in NM prophecies and factions, it's ridiculously easy.
Also, lvl 28 eles are quite hard to face, they can easily wipe a party (H/H) if their number at the start of the battle isn't well counted. They do not need to be boosted.
The only change eles need is a reduce in HM foe armors. Maybe reduce their armor against elemental damages so they aren't as high as against physical damages.

Uh what? Pretty much anything can make nm PvE wither quickly. Making Hard Mode easier is not the key to fixing ele's.